FutureProof You

Aaron Makelky: Welcome to today's
episode of the Future Proof

You podcast, Go F Yourself.

I am your co-host, Aaron
Makelky, joined first by Dan Yu.

Dan Yu @danoyu: Hey there.

Aaron Makelky: And our
other co-host, John Lovig.

What's John?

John Lovig: Hello, hello.

Aaron Makelky: The topic today is
one that cuts deep with everybody

eventually and with me currently.

What are you gonna do when
you get laid off, let go?

You find yourself out of a job for
whatever reason, we are going to bring

you the layoff first aid kit, because who
talks to more people that have been laid

off than two recruiters like Dan and John?

they've.

The data set is expansive.

We're in the tens of thousands.

Is that accurate, John?

John Lovig: I would imagine so.

We're close to it.

Aaron Makelky: 'Cause some percent
of people that you're interviewing

as a recruiter are currently not
working, and it's not 100, but

John Lovig: It's probably half.

Aaron Makelky: And then we've talked about
how many interviews between the two of

you, and it was like 10 to 20,000 a piece.

So even if only half of those are people
that are just like, "Oh, I got laid off.

I got let go.

My company shut down."

Whatever it is, they're essentially,
"I had a job and now I don't.

What do I do?"

And the, the framework for this
is inspired by being married to

a healthcare provider who brings
first aid kits everywhere you go.

So when I'm in vacation in Glacier
National Park, if I get eaten by a bear,

the first aid kit is not going to help.

Like it can only fix some problems.

But if you get a scrape, a cut, you break
your leg, and it's like, "We can mend

that up and get you back to the hospital
without having you die or get infected."

That's what the first aid
kit is for in, real life.

And it's the same thing with careers.

Like you can't fix my work
history or where I got my degree

because that's a bigger problem.

But there are short term, quick,
relatively cheap or free things you

can do and start doing right away
when you find yourself out of a job.

So Dan, we're gonna start with this.

Let's say hypothetically, I come to you.

laid off, out of the blue, on a Zoom with
HR people that are like, "you're done."

What's the first thing I should
be thinking about and doing?

Dan Yu @danoyu: Well, I have a
question back you and to the audience.

do you still have access to your email?

And you don't, there's certain
actions, but if you do, there's

a couple things you can do.

And number one is download
all your contacts.

If you can download all your contacts, a
powerful thing that can be the basis of

how you build your network going forward.

Aaron Makelky: So where
would I be finding those?

Let's say, to answer your question,
I have 30 minutes, all my logins

or my workstation that I'm at.

I can get into my apps.

Like where should I be going?

Dan Yu @danoyu: Go to your Outlook, right?

Go to your, go to your, go to your
contacts and just download everything.

Aaron Makelky: Yeah.

And I, being the Google guy, Google
takeout, if you can get all of your

Google stuff, but you can do the same
from Gmail if you're not a finance bro

like Dan who thinks about Microsoft first.

Okay.

So I'm capturing names, emails,
whatever sort of contact info,

CRM type tool that I have at work,
not for the meeting transcripts

or the, how big the contract was.

It was like, who was that guy at that
company that I did that deal with or that

lady that I helped with something at work?

Just so I can send him a message.

John, that's not your
first, what is the first?

Or now that I have those, I exported
them, one can take away the contact info.

What's the next step?

John Lovig: Yeah, I think for
me, I'm gonna, not to say that's

super important, but I don't have
saved contacts in my Outlook.

they're just whoever emails me.

I'm already connected on
LinkedIn, all that stuff.

I actually kinda boil the first thing
down to get your head right immediately

because what happens is people who
get laid off immediately start turning

into negative, spiraling creatures that
forget that it's really not about you.

A lot of times it's a personless, nameless
decision when it's a layoff, right?

It's a big, broad sweep that makes no
sense most of the time, especially to

us individual contributors or people
who are within the organization.

But ultimately, you need to start framing
it as you gotta start thinking about

the positive right away before you start
turning every experience into a negative

because you, you meet these people
who've been laid off for a long time.

It's like a.

I'm trying to think of an example.

It's like that, that character
in Fantastic Beasts who's just

this pure negative energy, right?

Like, you, you really.

Of course, I have to bring something
super geeky into the equation.

but, start framing it as a, as an
opportunity at the beginning of the

process, because quite frankly, it is.

And then the other thing I would
say is, depending on how much you

need it, but jump on unemployment
benefits immediately too, because it

takes a while for that to kick in.

Usually two or three weeks.

So day one, day two, jump on that.

Aaron Makelky: Yeah.

And I'll, to tag team Dan,
Dan has a playbook and we'll

put this in the show notes.

if you're listening to this and you do
have access to your Outlook and all those

tools, or you're sharing it with somebody
who does, finding a way to periodically

capture that so that if you go into a
Zoom on a Wednesday, you're like, "Oh,

that first step actually would be better
if it was John's Get Your Mind Right."

And, but if you don't have any
contacts and you have 30 minutes till

they go away, it's like scramble.

In fact, I just had a discussion with
someone who was in office at a role,

got let go, and they didn't tell
him like, "Can you go back to your

desk and log in and get some stuff?"

so he had to awkwardly ask HR,
like, "Can I, can I go get on my

computer and export some things?"

And they were like, "Oh, oh yeah.

30 minutes."

And I just picked an arbitrary time.

And he told me, he's like,
"Dude, I scrambled to export,

download, screenshot."

It was like I was in the Matrix
for 30 minutes to get everything

because I knew when I closed the
laptop, it was just getting wiped.

And he hadn't proactively
done anything with that.

If you're in the Google ecosystem,
Google Takeout is a savior.

You can basically clone a
Google account and take it to a

personal one or a different one.

And you don't may, maybe want everything,
but get contacts or docs or emails,

whatever matters to you and set that
to happen on a recurring basis so you

don't always have to do it manually.

John Lovig: I, I talk to
designers about this a lot, right?

They always wait till after they're.

When they're about to leave to
export any, any work that they

might wanna put in their portfolio.

And it's like, no, take it while you can.

It's also better to build your
portfolio as you go because you're

fresh in the information versus looking
back at it with a different lens.

So that practice of always thinking about,
how do I keep information that I think

is important for me is, is really good.

And then, of course, then I think
you could jump into the more

important stuff, in my opinion.

Aaron Makelky: Yes.

Dan Yu @danoyu: Yeah, and if, John,
if there, the files are huge, right?

It could take a, quite a while
to actually put in a drive and

then move everything over, right?

there's only so much, speed that you
could depend on that little wire.

Aaron Makelky: And video, not that I've
worked with any video people who got let

go from their company abruptly, but how
are you gonna export a year's worth of

video to your hard drive or upload it
somewhere in the cloud in 30 minutes?

You just can't do it.

So.

John Lovig: and especially, in the
recruiting world, I've seen situations

where people have been in the office
with their boss, and they come back to a

workstation they no longer have access to.

So, you can't assume you're gonna
have access in those situations.

Aaron Makelky: Yeah, so
let's, let's set the stage.

You have the contacts.

Maybe you did it proactively, but the
first time most people don't, and then

they get burned and learn their lesson.

That's been my experience personally.

and then you take time to get your
mind right and not turn into the

negativity beast that's gonna taint every
conversation and interaction you have.

I have those two things
in the first aid kit.

I, I took the, the
aspirin of both of those.

in your playbook, then
what's the next step?

Dan Yu @danoyu: Well, you can do this
as you're sitting there is put out, put

an out of office reply new information.

Or maybe your LinkedIn.

You can also do that, right?

And that email you a way eventually.

So I don't know if that's the
most ethical thing to do, but

you're already out of there.

What do you

Aaron Makelky: That is, I just have to
say, I've known you for a long time.

I thought I knew all of your
tricks and your secrets.

That is pro level stuff.

' John Lovig: Cause that will go under
the radar for a long period of time,

because what they'll do for, for those
who don't know, regardless of which

environment you're in, once you're
ousted, your, your mailbox usually gets

delegated to a coworker or your manager.

They might not notice the out of
office, for a while, and even then

they might not do anything about it.

So you, sending people your way
without anyone caring or noticing.

Aaron Makelky: Yeah.

That's,

Dan Yu @danoyu: Yeah.

Aaron Makelky: spectacular.

So John, what's your next
step in this sequence?

John Lovig: Well, obviously,
that sounds like a great one.

I think that now it's time to let
people know in your network, right?

Whether you're gonna do it low-key
or if you're gonna do a grand post.

of course, get your head right
if you get the post, but also

when you're letting folks know.

And the, the thing that you wanna have,
kind of lined up when you're thinking

about that is, so now what's next?

And think about it from your perspective
too of, was there anything that wasn't

working for you in your current job?

Is there something you'd like to improve?

Is there another direction you'd
like to go in and really think about

what will be the next logical move
for you based on your experience?

And have that information ready.

"Hey, Aaron, I'm looking for a new role.

Didn't know if you had any leads.

Here's what I'm targeting.

regardless, I'm happy to catch up.

It'd be great to catch up with you."

Or whatever the message might be.

But really giving people the, the ammo
to go out and, advocate on your behalf.

Aaron Makelky: And I wanna let
Dan answer the LinkedIn version of

that step because I'm gonna defer
to his experience and LinkedIn

reach that he has over me at least.

John, besides the LinkedIn posts, so
what are some ways to let people know

in your network that are not obvious?

John Lovig: Hmm.

That are not obvious.

You mean to others?

Aaron Makelky: Like I'm sitting
there, let's say, I've done everything

step by step and I go, "It's time to
activate my network and let them know."

I'm gonna let Dan say, "How do you
craft the LinkedIn Post to do that

John Lovig: I mean

Aaron Makelky: there?"

John Lovig: I text everyone I know.

I just go to, the five, six recruit.

Dan would be on the list.

It'd probably be in our text
thread between the two of

us, just like yours was.

I text every recruiter I know because
I'm a recruiter and I know recruiters.

So there's, probably five to
10 people I would say, "Hey,

guess what just happened to me?

Blah, blah, blah."

And some of them won't be recruiters,
but will be people who are connecting

with spaces where they might.

And it's more about just letting them
know, but then they might have ideas

or even just for emotional support.

ironically, I'd probably, I'd probably
let friends know before family because

I feel like that would be a more
useful effort, at least initially.

Aaron Makelky: Yeah.

Us millennials all know
what our parents would say.

Like, "You weren't gonna be
at that company for 45 years

and start there and end there?

I thought that's how jobs worked."

Not that I've had

John Lovig: My family, I think,
still wishes I worked for Yale still.

Aaron Makelky: Yeah.

John Lovig: I would work
with my brother and his wife.

And I'd be they're almost 20 years now.

Aaron Makelky: Yeah.

So, so basically your secret sauce in
this tactic is network with the best

network people, which, recruiters
are one, but anyone who's hiring in

their role, maybe it's not anything
you would do, but they're a leader

at their company or somebody with a
big social media following, whatever.

They're just like, they
have a lot of connections.

John Lovig: Yeah.

I, I, I would call them, think
of the, your, your personal

force multipliers, right?

The people that you know that once
you text them that, they'll be

like, "Have you thought of this?

Have you thought of this?

Have you thought of this?"

That's someone like Dan.

I have another friend in the space who.

They don't have to be recruiters.

They could be in your industry, they
could be in adjacent industries, but the

people that you know that will probably
rattle off some ideas and kind of give

you an initial head start before you
start to really do your own effort.

Aaron Makelky: Yeah.

Oh.

Dan Yu @danoyu: Yeah, the force
multipliers is, is important, right?

Because you're gonna be in
that head space, like, why me?

You're gonna have, all of
these, of these thoughts.

A lot of garbage is gonna
go through your head.

And so having people inspire you or direct
you with a list of things to do, right?

So we have this show, right?

This is, this is for you, the, the
people who have gotten laid off, right?

That here are some practical things
you can do immediately and get your

inertia kind of rolling, right?

Get that momentum just, just
the first roll of the ball.

John Lovig: My, it, it's funny, my
CEO had a really good comment the

other day, and I had never thought of
this, but it was really great advice.

Dan, you, you, you may even
have thought of it or, or

would definitely appreciate it.

But, the line of work of an agency
recruiter can sometimes you find

yourself in plateaus and, and valleys.

And sometimes when you're in a kind of
deep, dark place and you haven't closed

in a while and you're starting to,
question yourself or you're starting to

burn out, he said, "Listen, sometimes
you just, things just, you feel like

you're hitting a wall or something.

Reach out to someone who you know
will, will respond, but someone who,

a contact that you've placed more than
once that always picks up the call.

Someone who you've done something
great for and just catch up with them.

They'll make you feel really good."

Right?

And I'm like, "Oh, that's
actually a really great point."

And I think very similar to what this
is, is like reaching out to those

people who are gonna, validate you.

Well, we know you're awesome and
we're gonna help you find a job.

And, and that kind of can help you set
the right cadence for the way you're

thinking about it, but also give you
a little bit of energy going into

the beginning part of your search.

Dan Yu @danoyu: You know, to that end,
you can start a company alumni group,

John Lovig: Mm-hmm.

Dan Yu @danoyu: right?

So I got let go from the first company
I ever really worked for after 15 years.

the next month I sent out an
evite back in the days of when

evite was, was ruling the day.

I said, "Hey, let's, everybody
go, let's go to a happy hour."

There was a big layoff, but
there was still a ton of

people still at the company.

let's go to happy hour at this place.

And it was around the
corner from the office.

So everyone knew exactly where it was.

It was a popular happy
hour place to go anyway.

And got 500 responses.

500.

Eventually, 300, I
counted 330 people there.

And the reason I know 330 people showed
up is because I turned it into a charity

fundraiser for Ronald McDonald House.

And I said, "20 bucks at the door.

10 bucks goes to the bar for, for their
troubles, and $10 was gonna go to,

Ronald McDonald House of New York City."

And 330 people times 10 bucks, I
had exactly $3,300 to donate to,

and it was, in tens and 20s to give
to Do, to Ronald McDonald House.

And that launched my efforts to
host networking events for my

industry for the next decade plus.

So you never know where it's gonna lead
you, but becoming that person that puts

people together elevates your brand
as not just a doer, but a connector.

And that's a Malcolm Gladwell thing.

Aaron Makelky: Yeah.

So then we gotta get to the specific
strategy for activating your network on

LinkedIn, because that's Dan's forte.

get asked this a lot.

I've had to do it when I chose to
leave a company and it's like, how do I

announce that in a classy, tasteful way?

I've also had to do it when being
let go and it wasn't my choice.

I think that's harder.

what's your tip for how I put
my fingers on the keyboard

on LinkedIn and say, "Update
everybody: "I'm looking for a job."

Dan Yu @danoyu: I think you just
have to, be positive about it, right?

this is a learning experience.

you, you have to be attractive,
right, to your audience.

You have to have them, like John says,
like you have to help them wanna help you.

me help you.

And so you, bitter and angry is not sexy.

So any bitterness or angriness,
throw it out the door, especially

when it comes to LinkedIn.

And so positive and just saying,
"Hey, this is an opportunity

to make a pivot and, would love
ideas on, where I may go, right?

Directions that I could,
I could think about."

and, and really crowdsource,
your, crowdsource ideas, right?

I mean, ultimately you'd
like referrals, sure.

really crowdsourcing ideas, I think
that's, that's where the power comes in.

Aaron Makelky: Yeah.

And I think the most underappreciated
thing you can do in that post.

I hope it's obvious to the
audience to avoid the bitterness,

but definitely do that first.

The next one is people
exactly how they can help.

And I see these all the time.

"I left so-and-so.

It was a great ride.

I'm looking for my next thing.

DM me if you know what
that is or have an idea."

And I go, "I don't even
know how to help you.

I might love you as a person and feel
empathetic, but what are you looking for?"

So it could be this type of role.

It could be this type of company.

It could be this type of work,
remote, in person, in New York

City, in Chicago, whatever.

And so many people I see don't connect
the dots to help the person help you.

So don't do this generic, like,
"I'm looking for my next thing

Thanks for your help network."

'Cause a lot of those people don't know.

John Lovig: I would even frame
a part of it as what you would

bring to a company, right?

So, whether it's process improvement
in a specific, whether it's direct

sales, whether it's, whatever the case.

I would, I would say I'm like a 360
recruiter capable of full desking,

searches, doing business development,
as well as managing and leading

teams because that, even though
I don't do that currently, I've

done it many times in the past.

That sense of what I could do and
what I'm open to would be helpful.

Aaron Makelky: Yeah.

And I think a way you can frame the
two things that you both talked about.

I can highlight what I got out of this
role and say like," I'm, I appreciate

I could build my muscle around this
skillset or this thing, that's what I'm

looking for to bring to my next company."

And it's like a way to not be
bitter, but to also add some

specific ask to that post.

John Lovig: Mm-hmm.

Aaron Makelky: Okay.

We have our contacts.

We have our mind right.

We've networked, whether it's LinkedIn,
recruiters we know, friends, the

people that John was describing.

I call battery rechargers.

We all have people that's like,
just talk to them on the phone

for 30 minutes and you'll feel
like you can take on the world.

Even if they're not a recruiter,
just like my batteries.

So do that.

Then you have your LinkedIn post out.

It's specific.

It's avoiding bitterness.

and it's honest and authentic, which
will help it stand out on LinkedIn.

What's next, John?

John Lovig: Well, I think to tie
into, it doesn't really necessarily

have to be a separate thing, but if
you were laid off with a peer or you

know someone who's currently laid off,
establish an accountability buddy, right?

Someone who you can have accountability
with and strategize with.

it's ideal if you have the same role
because you can really understand the

true nature of each other's plight.

But even if not, if it's someone else
in your org, it's good to partner up.

And then you I find when I'm career
coaching people, the number one challenge

they face is they're not consistent.

And unless they've got someone,
like half the time when people are

paying me for coaching, it's because
they just want someone to tell them

they did or didn't do something.

Not even just yeah, run ideas
by me, "Hey, did this work?

what do you think about this?"

But most of the time, it's really
they want someone to, to boss them

around a little bit and make sure
that they're holding their numbers and

doing the right activities every week.

so there's that.

And then I think it's now time to
really devise a deeper search strategy.

So now it's what are the job
titles you're looking for?

What are the companies currently hiring
for them or the ones that are showing

signal around potentially hiring
for them and who do you need to meet

and know in order to get that job?

Aaron Makelky: Yeah.

So the, the accountability buddy is great.

And I also think this, if when
you're listening to this, you're

not the person who got let go.

At least be the person who messages those
who get let go and show some empathy.

I know that's always awkward.

Bob just got fired.

What am I gonna say?

But there's two types of employees
once you leave a company.

Those who are connected to you
beyond the work and those who are

like, "I'll never talk to you again
because we don't work together and

I'm not paid to talk to you anymore."

And you don't wanna be that
type of a, of a person.

So even if it's like, "Hey, sucks.

Heard about that.

Let me know how I can help.

Who can I talk to in my network?"

That means a ton to those people.

And that's great advice to, buddy up
with someone who's in a similar boat.

Dan, what's next on your tactical list?

Dan Yu @danoyu: You know, before I get
to my next tip, I will, I will tell a

story that I had a client that I had
been dealing with for about 14 years.

she got let go.

And I checked in with her
every three to four weeks.

When she did finally get another job,
she said that I was the only broker

that kept in touch consistently.

And she gave me her first
order after coming back.

She said, "That's for just keeping my,
helping me keep my head above water."

And I thought, "Wow, I,
didn't mean to do that.

I just did it.

Just check in every few
weeks, every month."

and she was out for about 18 months.

So, five or 10 minute conversations.

You never know where
it's gonna, gonna lead.

so another practical tip, and this
is more on the personal side, is ask

when your health benefits run out.

Because sometimes if you get, if you
get let go in the middle of the month,

they've already paid for that month.

to schedule all of your appointments
and get all of your stuff done before

your health benefits run out, before
you may be forced to go in COBRA.

that's one thing that I would
suggest as a practical thing.

as far as, your career's concerned,
really start thinking about turning

on your green banner, and, as just
part of, how you get out there.

Start, reaching out to people
and maybe create your own group.

Maybe join some industry groups.

If, when I was on Wall Street, I
joined every Wall Street group there

was that I could find on LinkedIn.

and that, I, I would suggest it highly.

It's a way to scale your
networking with just a few clicks.

Aaron Makelky: Yeah.

really good.

And colleagues who've had the added
pressure, not only of the health

insurance running out, but the
immigration status, being dependent

on employment is such a huge thing.

So I think sometimes people get
distracted with, "I need the next job,"

and they forget there's some other
pieces that have a faster clock that you

need to, have a plan for and address.

So that's a, that's a great one.

Now, let's talk about the job search
then, because John broached this topic.

Okay.

It's time to get serious and clarify.

What are you looking for?

I get this all the time.

I'm navigating it currently.

Where do I start with the job search
now that all this other stuff is done?

Like, I'm staring at LinkedIn or a blank
screen and go, where do I find a job?"

John Lovig: I think, I think
there's two, two things.

there's two ways to approach it, right?

One is you can start by
looking what's posted.

And obviously that's gonna
be low-hanging fruit.

you do not, you're not gonna know
where they are in the search process.

but I would kinda take two approaches.

I would do that direct, look for job
postings, find the hiring manager or,

or likely hiring manager or likely
colleague, contact, try to get a referral

in or, or someone to advocate for you.

And then there's identify companies
you wanna work for and try and make

something happen without a post.

because sometimes you can catch them
before the posting's coming up, or it can

be an opportunistic, outreach where maybe
they weren't thinking of hiring someone

in a space, but if they have extra budget,
they might wanna bring someone on board.

If you can, especially if you can
articulate a value add that says, "Hey,

here's why I'm worth bringing them."

Agency recruiter, for instance,
it's a little bit easier.

We can point to billing and things
like that to say, "Hey, I bring X

amount of revenue to my company.

Would you hire me?"

to an agency.

If they're doing okay, they're
likely gonna entertain it, right?

because they have mechanisms in place
to determine whether or not you're,

you're worth your weight fast enough.

that's not the case with every
job, but at the same time, catching

people, early, especially if they're
earlier stage companies, sometimes

they don't know what title they need.

They just know what problem
they have to solve for.

And, what you do, Aaron,
sometimes companies might actually

need that support, but don't
have that function in-house.

So you can go up to a, someone
in, in marketing or in customer

success or some adjacent area and
say, "Hey, listen, here's what

I'm best in the world at doing.

I don't know if you need anybody in this,
but keep me in mind for the future."

And ideally, "Hey, I'd love to chat with
you sometime and just get to know you."

And that person may or may not be able
to bring you in sooner rather than later.

Aaron Makelky: Especially if it's a
job title that's not a common thing.

'Cause they might have a job
posted that a search will not pull.

John Lovig: Mm-hmm.

Aaron Makelky: if you can articulate the
problems you solve, "Yeah, I don't know

what that job title is, but we need that.

I've seen that firsthand
and it's very powerful."

I

John Lovig: Go to market engineer
is a title like that right now where

maybe someone has three different,
there's three different kind of

titles that do the same thing.

But if you solve that function and
you see an organization that maybe

isn't that well established yet
yet, you could sell yourself in.

Recruiters do it all the time.

We'll sell, we'll sell
in profiles of people.

I'll talk to somebody, they'll, they'll be
so reminiscent of a type of client's hire.

Someone that my client regularly
hires, but maybe a different title.

And I would, I would reach out to my
client and say, "Hey, I know you're not

necessarily looking for this right now,
but I just wanted to share this profile.

What do you think?"

And, probably 25 to 50% of the time,
at the very least, take a meeting

and either say, "Hey, not right now."

Or, "You know what?

Let's explore this

This episode was so good that we
had to actually split it into two.

So we're considering this part one of
the layoff first aid kit, where John,

Dan, and I share our tips for job seekers
who got let go or left their jobs.

Next week, we will have part two with
the follow-up more actionable, hey,

you're in the job search type tips.

Make sure you are subscribed on
whatever platform you are watching

or listening to this episode so we
can get that in front of you as well.

In the meantime, our website
is futureproof-you.com.

You can also follow Dan, John, and
I on LinkedIn, and our company page,

Future-Proof You is on LinkedIn as well.

Check out our website for downloadables,
classes where we teach job hunting

skills, interviewing skills,
and how to make career pivots.

Most of all, thank you for
your time and your attention.