FutureProof You

EP 11 Job Market FutureProof You Podcast
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Aaron: [00:00:00]

Aaron: Welcome to this episode of The Future Proof You podcast. I am one of your co-hosts, Aaron Makelky. I am joined by recruiting expert John Lovig. And Career Pivot and LinkedIn publisher expert Dan Yu

John Lovig: Probably we should have said hi for the audio listeners. Huh?

Dan Yu: Hello,

Aaron: Yeah, that's okay.

Dan Yu: of just waving.

Aaron: our topic today is the craziness in the labor market, and one of the acronyms that came up in our backstage meeting for the podcast was an acronym I was introduced during the pandemic. VUCA stands for volatile. Uncertain, complex and ambiguous. And we get the impression that a lot of people feel those things towards the labor market.

Aaron: Like, how am I gonna get a job? Or I got laid off, or I was a federal employee and got an email and [00:01:00] now I have nothing. And one of the things that we want to hear from Dan on is as a career pivot coach who's actively working with people one-on-one, and through future-proof you. What are you seeing as the person who's coaching the talent and helping people navigate the VUCA job market?

Dan Yu: Well, I think right off the bat, the, the, the overall theme that, uh. People that are in the market, whether they're, looking for a new job because they're in a terrible job, or they've been laid off the, uh, the uncertainty, which you brought up, um, which really leads to fear, right? So if they don't know what the next step looks like, I. Uh, I think there's a lot of fear there. You know, how can they, uh, imagine a future? And it's very hard for them to, because as, as we've all seen in the past few years, industries are changing in, you know, in, in such a fast [00:02:00] fashion, right? So, ai, new autonomous driving, you know, all of these, you know, shifts in business as well as shifts in demographics. also as, uh, we said at the top of the show, the, you know, government layoffs, right? Or maybe there's, uh, gov new government regulations. And so there's the unintended consequences of that. Right. So just, uh, you know, just pulling back on some regulatory, uh, type of rule, well, there's going to be downstream effects of that. And so all of these, uh, all of these changing factors, they're happening faster and faster, and I think that's causing a lot of uncertainty. And we see it in our classes and we see it in our students' eyes. You know, they come to us, you know, just looking for. Some direction and help and guidance and you know, that's what we're here to do.

Dan Yu: And you know, sure we wanna, we wanna build this school up, but we're really here to, uh, to help people at scale.[00:03:00]

Aaron: Yeah. And John, you're kind of on both sides of the coin, but more on the opposite than Dan spoke to, and that's the hiring side. As a recruiter who's going out helping companies hire their talent, what are you seeing on that side with the shifts in the labor market, say since January of 2025?

John Lovig: Yeah, I think, I think the challenge that people are seeing is we keep seeing. unprecedented hiring happening at the same time that there's unprecedented layoffs and it's, some companies are struggling to hire while others are not hiring at all, and it just speaks to a shift in. Um, where companies are hiring and what the talent market looks like.

John Lovig: You know, you're seeing a lot less tech jobs, although they're starting to creep up a little bit. that's also where a lot of the talent lies right now that's out there. And a lot of that has to do with disruption, disruption with technology. [00:04:00] there's also just, you know. the job market right now is, is reflecting of uncertainty in our economy, and companies are being extremely nitpicky with the type of talent that they're hiring.

John Lovig: They're looking for a one-to-one match, and they'll use any reason. That they can, to not hire somebody in order to avoid making a mistake. I think that's a challenge because a lot of times if you're trying to hire somebody, there's a reason why you're hiring, right? You're trying to hire to either help improve profits, reduce uh, costs, decrease risk. so if that is something that would be valuable to a business, not hiring can be just as or more costly. As hiring the wrong person. And I, I think actually in a lot of times it could be more costly, but you know, a lot of, a lot of these companies laid off a bunch of people in their talent team and in their HR team who might be able to help guide them [00:05:00] in that way. And I think. there's still that disconnect between executive leadership and the people who understand kind of the middle part of the business that leads to this strange, uh, gap between what companies need and what executives are doing. So, yeah, it's a, it's a interesting time and it's hard for us to predict too, because as, as we said, pre-show, things have not been. As as usual since. pandemic, like to be able to predict certain trends that would happen seasonally. You could look at where the down market would be or up market would be, and and be able to at least have a reasonable expectation to guide people on. And now it's a little bit more like, Hey, you gotta start looking towards what you might be able to do in the future.

John Lovig: Or you might need to start looking towards things that might be a little bit outside of your normal comfort zone in order [00:06:00] to be compelling in the market.

Aaron: we hear the Dano method flashing or the Dano bat sign, because that acronym, I think is the solution to that uncertainty that you're talking about, John.

John Lovig: For those who don't know,

Dan Yu: I guess I, I,

John Lovig: Dan,

Dan Yu: I

John Lovig: them the method.

Dan Yu: guess it's, I guess it's my turn. Uh, so the, the Dano method, uh, really is just an acronym, uh, D for discover, uh, new niche or growth industry. Right. So the one, the one thing about growth industries is that if they have capital, they're going to be hiring, right? They're, you know, that, that's by design. if you are, uh, looking for something new to do, if you're looking for a new pivot, don't be in a, in a very mature industry because it can only go flat or down. Right. Ultimately, uh, the a, uh, apply your transferable skills, Everybody has transferable skills [00:07:00] and one of the things that we teach. In our classes at Future Proof U is the whole idea of democratizing or maybe dumbing down the way you describe your job and your skills and the things you've accomplished so that the audience, whoever you're looking at, maybe it's a recruiter or hiring manager in that growth industry, will be able to understand how your skills can transfer over there. And then n is you gotta network, you know, and you gotta network and bring your passion to that networking exercise so that you get in front of as many people as possible. And then o that's really, you gotta overcome your fear, uh, and you gotta overcome your fear every four to five years as new growth industries pop up and as, uh, growth industries mature, so.

John Lovig: You know the other thing too, I think that's, that's kind of important now when we think about the future of [00:08:00] careers and where. Where we see things going right? A lot of this stuff is starting to become collaborating with other companies, collaborating with other individual contributors, you know, as we're kind of doing right now.

John Lovig: And, and I think it's important to also remember, as you're looking at growth industries, also continue to diversify your income sources because ability for a company to ke hire you and keep you and you get to stay there for the rest of your career is. non-existent now, and you have to think of yourself as your own company, your own brand, and prepare yourself for divestment and invest in other ways, because if not, you're going to find yourself in a, in a bad spot, potentially.

Dan Yu: Yeah, there. There was a concept a few years ago the CEO of me Incorporated. Right, and you really have to run your career as a business, right? You're the CEO. The [00:09:00] CFO, the C-O-O-C-M-O, of it. And you have to be ruthless, right? CEOs, what are they? What's one characteristic? They're gonna do whatever it is to.

Dan Yu: Make sure their company is successful. Make sure that they're returning shareholder value, right? And who to, uh, who you're responsible to. You're responsible to your board of directors, right? It's maybe it's to, you know, the bills you have to pay, but maybe it's to your family, right? That's who you're responsible to. And so you have to be ruthless with how you approach your career. And I'm not saying be a terrible person, but you have to be. Uh, really careful on how much time and effort you spend in doing thing or another.

John Lovig: One, one thing I think, Dan, that you always come back to a lot when we, 'cause who don't know, while Dan and I have also known each other for almost 10 years, we also run ideas. We've been running ideas b by each other [00:10:00] forever, and, You know, one of the things that Dan's always harken back to for me, that I think is important is respect your own time.

John Lovig: Because that time is worth quite a bit and don't undervalue that time. And so

Dan Yu: Yeah.

John Lovig: if you think about what are value add activities that you can do within your career and where you can add, uh, more to your. Um, available time. That's where that ruthlessness comes. It's like, you know, maintaining the schedule that you think is gonna, you know, pay the shareholders at the end of the day.

Dan Yu: Right. And I mean, is it, um, is it a good use of your time to be, you know, on social media for an

John Lovig: Mm-hmm.

Dan Yu: No, it's probably not. You know, use that hour and some content and, you know, that's a little bit of a lead into, you know, the thing we're teaching this week, you know, content creation 1 0 1, but ultimately be productive [00:11:00] when you can.

Dan Yu: I'm not saying be productive all the time, that that kind of balance is not possible either. But being productive and being ruthless about how you approach your career.

John Lovig: Yeah. Aaron, you, you know, a lot of people who are trying to break away from, you know, the. A pre-established career model that they have. Being a teacher yourself and, and knowing a lot of discontented individuals, what would you say, you know, based on kind of your experience in the space?

Aaron: Yeah, uncertainty is the emotion that really resonates with people in education right now and indirectly. I have some family members and friends that are federal employees and still have, uh, key fobs that work last I checked, but I. We're all kind of in the same boat about, well, it's gonna change. I just dunno how, and maybe I haven't been laid off or displaced yet, but I've seen colleagues and [00:12:00] offices and direct reports who, just an example with, uh, an EPA administration person.

Aaron: They got on a meeting and I was like, oh, I just lost nine people I didn't know I was gonna lose when I hopped on the call. And you don't have to be the one to get pink slip to be thinking ahead and like. The next Zoom could be me. The next Zoom could be my spouse or my team. And I, I think what's hard is people go, okay, I know it's uncertain.

Aaron: I know I need to start doing something differently, but what, like, what's the blueprint to follow and the, the thing that I've found, and then Dan's gonna tell me what he would say. You need a mentor and you need a meta skill, like something transferrable that you could do for a, a small business down the road or as a teacher or for a big corporation, like they all have these common bundles of skills that you start developing on your own and you have a mentor that coaches you or [00:13:00] shows you how to do it or share some templates or ideas with you.

Aaron: Dan, what would you say to the federal employee who. Maybe just got laid off or is like, uh, it's probably a matter of time until I am, so I know I need to change, but I don't know where to start.

Dan Yu: Uh, I think the first thing that they need to do is really understand what their skillset is. If they can understand the things that they did and then break down the activities they did on a day-to-day basis, what will

Aaron: I.

Dan Yu: are actual skills. So. Everyone is essentially a project manager. They're gonna do something where they have to start research, understand what the people, uh, uh, that they are going to affect with that work.

Dan Yu: What, what is their experience? Then they're going to build the thing that they're going to, they're going to do, and um, and then they're gonna implement it. And that's a project, or actually [00:14:00] many consensus is a product. so running projects and products, I mean, those are tr completely transferable skills. So that's just one example. um, in any workplace environment, there's stuff that begins. Then you do something to, uh, to actually execute it. And then what comes out of it, you know, the, what are the results, right? And so the very beginning of it, that's a thinking process. So what is the challenge that you were faced with?

Dan Yu: What was that opportunity and how did you think about it? And when you, when you think, when you can describe how you thought about it, that's a transferable skill. The thought process, because we can. We can talk about math skills, we could talk about technical skills all day long. But the EQ of work, how you think about it, that's what's gonna make you stand out versus all of the other [00:15:00] candidates versus um, even existing employees of the firm that you're gonna go to.

Dan Yu: How did you think about it? 'cause you're gonna bring something new. You're gonna bring the ability to pivot, you're gonna bring all of those resiliency kind of attributes, and that is what's attractive to employers.

John Lovig: I think too, like what's interesting nowadays, and I talk about this with candidates all the time, is as much as we talk about impact, the impact that people make is a result of core competencies that exist within them. And. Some of the challenge that we see in the market today could be easily resolved in terms of, especially when companies are struggling to hire pulling back from a, did they do X, Y, Z to do they have this competency?

John Lovig: Because [00:16:00] most jobs only require, most jobs require the same key competencies. are you capable of analyzing data? Are you capable of conveying information effectively? Are you capable of selling? Are you a lifelong learner? Are you someone who could learn information easily? Are you technically adept? Those are certain things that can go into almost any role. Or how high of attention to detail are you someone with a high attention to detail Could be a, an analyst or a phenomenal bartender.

Dan Yu: Right,

John Lovig: You know, because that detail orient Exactly. I

Aaron: Yep.

John Lovig: that's hard skills that you need to learn, right?

Dan Yu: Yeah. Right.

John Lovig: but we have to, I think we have to start think like the market needs to start preparing for shifting the skills of our population or else we're gonna suffer as a country.

Aaron: Yep. And I think there's two groups of people, those that. Are gonna prepare before they have [00:17:00] to pivot and have a plan and are like, oh, I'm so glad I started, let's say networking before I got pink slipped, or

John Lovig: Exactly.

Aaron: my side hustle before I looked for the career pivot. And then there's gonna p be the people who go, yeah, I'm not surprised, but I didn't do anything and I wish I would've started one of the.

Aaron: Very valuable things that Dan teaches and is coming up in our April live classes for career Pivots is the 360 degree assessment of your skills. A huge mistake people make. I was guilty of this until Dan taught me the method. You sit in your office, turn off the lights and meditate on your own strengths and try to discover them.

Aaron: Well, I asked somebody in a Zoom, what do you think I'm good at? What are like my meta skills? And they said, one I never would've thought of. And a light bulb went off. And I was like, I never would've seen it that way. 'cause I'm in my own snow globe, so to speak. And this person said, did you ever think you're.

Aaron: Biggest skill is you're just a good storyteller that can simplify things. That's all you are like, [00:18:00] you're not smart, you're not good looking. The only reason your tiktoks get views is 'cause you can take this big thing and package it up in an engaging way in 30 seconds. That's your true skill. And I, I was shocked.

Aaron: I was like, actually, when I think of everything I do, that is one of my biggest skills. But without the 360 degree, like ask my boss, ask my colleague, ask my wife. Who tells me, get back to washing the dishes. Um, you don't get the same true assessment of your skills if it's just a solo thing. And you have to learn to ask people for that feedback so that you can go build those.

Dan Yu: Yeah. I mean, you have to sublimate yourself right to the process, right? And you know, the, uh, the saying as the saying goes, right, it takes a village. Right. And it, it takes a village to work on your career. I mean, you, you can't just progress in your career all by yourself. There's people that help you.

Dan Yu: There's people that, uh, will [00:19:00] teach you things. Whether or not you agreed with them, you learn something, right. Whether or not they were nice to you, you learn something. Right. You will learn something. And, uh, there's a couple great books. Um, the author, Keith Ferrazzi, I mean, he, you know, he, he's the, uh, author of Never Eat Alone, right?

Dan Yu: Which is all about networking and meeting people you don't know. When you meet people you don't know, you learn infinitely more than from somebody that you already know. That's

John Lovig: Yeah.

Dan Yu: concept. He has another book called Who's Got Your Back, and that's building that trusted, um, you know, circle of truth, that inner circle of people that you can depend on.

Dan Yu: Now the interesting thing is that Inner Circle will change over time as you change over time. And I think the, one of the failings, I've been guilty of it too. Is that I look at my mentors from before as still applicable to be today. And that's totally not [00:20:00] the case, right? My needs today are much different than 15, 20, even 10 years ago. And so, uh, self-aware, I think that is a, um, that is a, a, a skill that we all should endeavor to be better

John Lovig: You know, that's one of my favorite topics when we talk about anything, because it's usually one of the biggest barriers to. Success in any way. Um, Aaron, something that you had mentioned too, and I think this is where the challenge becomes for a lot or comes for a lot of people. Even if they could get to the point where they can recognize that they're really good at being a storyteller and then disseminating that effectively to other people, then they can't go back and figure out how to specialize it into something else, They don't know how to take the, the, the teacher who's the phenomenal storyteller and turn it into somebody who's. a different place, and you've done that effectively through your side hustle and, and working on other things. [00:21:00] Um, but a lot of people just don't know where to start or even you know, how to, to think about other roles in that way because they don't know how to generalize those either.

Aaron: Yeah. Well, I've learned a lot.

Dan Yu: those skills

Aaron: Yeah.

Dan Yu: month.

Aaron: And. The short answer to that is do it for yourself and suck at it. Then go do it for a buddy, a friend, a father-in-law who needs that service or skillset, and you can do it free, whatever. You're just doing it for experience and referrals. And once you have five or 10 of those, you start offering it as a paid service and the people you did it for for free.

Aaron: Let's say it's a small business owner that needed help with their marketing. You know, who else knows small business owners that struggle with marketing, the one you just helped last week, and say, Hey, part of why I helped you with that content strategy plan is I'd love for you to share this with five or 10 of your fellow small business people that you have breakfast with on Friday mornings.

Aaron: And I'd like to get in front of them or, or offer that service to them. [00:22:00] And you're not gonna make money right away 'cause you're not good enough. You haven't earned that. And a huge shift that I think government employees, and I'm counting myself as a teacher in have to make is we used to, I viewed failure as a scar to hide.

Aaron: And I was on a call with a founder yesterday and he goes, oh, my first startup I. I fell on my face. I made all these mistakes and he was pitching me on kind of working with him and my brain clicked and I was like, good, I'm glad you screwed up. 'cause now you're gonna be better this time around. Whereas a, a teacher and a government employee sometimes is like, oh, I don't wanna anyone know.

Aaron: I messed up. I wanna be perfect the first time. And that can be the barrier that keeps you from getting in the arena and doing the thing, and then you realize. Yeah, I screwed up a lot a year ago, but now I'm gonna charge you more 'cause I'm good at it and I don't have to make those mistakes for you today, which that's exactly what we teach at Future-Proof.

Aaron: You and [00:23:00] Dan is the career pivot specialist. So if you hear these things like 360 degree assessment of your skills or being able to give your elevator pitch, or knowing the psychology of interview skills. Check out our website, future proof y.com, which is gonna have links to all of our classes. If you miss the live classes in April of 2025 for Career Pivoters, there'll be digital downloads.

Aaron: You can also DM us on LinkedIn and reach out to us individually for help and ideas and coaching as well. I am Aaron McKey, co-founder of Futureproof. You here with my two? Partners who are gonna verbally recognize our podcast listeners, John Lovig and Dan Yu, thank you for joining us today.

Dan Yu: Thanks for listening.